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Handloads.Com Forum Huntingpenetration vs energy | |
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| Ok folks, here is my take on the age old argument. Is a penetrating bullet better than a rapidly expanding one? In my opinion, no, it is not. Hydrostatic shock does exist. Why? A bullet has energy, it moves, if the bullet passes through, it has retained energy, if it stops in target, it has transfered all it's energy. This is where I think the problem occurs, u want a bullet that either passes through, or punches deep enough to hit the vitals when it dumps the majority of it's payload of energy. I think it depends how u think shoot, and hunt when it comes to which bullet u should use. I am very clinical when I hunt. I hate tracking. So I use high energy dump bullets whenever I can. No, pass through style bullets do not always lead to long tracking jobs, unless I was shooting them. I like neck shots on deer, the neck is not very thick, so I need a rapidly expanding bullet. I use hornady sst 139 grn bullets in my rifle, I feel they dump energy quick, if I shoot the neck, it expands, shocks the spine, and destroys the arteries, if I shoot the heart/lung shot, it causes major tissue damage. But this is how I think and hunt, what's your opinions on the age old debat? And do pistols are rifles apply differently? hmmm... | |
Somebody once asked a centipede, "Mr. centipede, how do u walk with all those legs"? When the centipede stoped and thought about it, he tripped and fell. | |
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| Ok lets address the "dumb energy" theory first. You shot a deer at 100yards with your trusty 280, when the 139gr bullet hits it is doing roughly 2700fps when it hits. In the case of the SST lets just say it retains 60% of its weight, and the velocity has slowed to by 2/3rds to about 900fps when it leaves the deer (after all it must go all they way through muscle, liquid, hide and bone, so it will slow WAY down). So now you have a 90 grain bullet doing 900 fps for a whopping 130 foot pounds of energy, or about the same as 32 Colt. Are you going to tell me that the difference between a deer that escapes and a dead deer is a 32 Colt? It is still about tissue destruction, blood loss, loss of oxygen that kills animals. If I shot a deer at 100 yards broadside and the bullet doesn't pass through, I have to believe there is a problem. Because if a bullet can't make it all the way through on a good angle, no telling how it will perform on a bad angle. It is IMPORTANT for the bullet to reach the vitals. Energy doesn't mean much. Why do you think people can kill elk, moose etc very effectively with a 45 Colt and some hard cast 310gr bullets doing 1200fps? Because it plows through and destroys tissue, creates blood loss and stops oxygen going to the brain. That is what does it. If I have to track, then I want 2 holes, blood flows much better out of 2 holes. I have killed the majority of my critters with Nosler Partitions, I have yet to recover a bullet. On the same token, most of the deer I have shot with Partitions run about 30-50yards before piling up, but they always pile up, and the blood path looks like someone throw blood out of a bucket. I have killed some with Ballistic tips, but don't use them. They do create MORE havioc inside on average, but I have had them not go all the way through, and I don't want that on a bad shot. I also like to eat what I shoot and find much less damaged meat with Partitions. Again, forget the energy. Put a good bullet where it belongs, and all is well. | |
Scott | |
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| A Penetrating Bullet better than a rapid expanding bullet. I talked with Ty at Barnes about that very question? He indicated that the new Triple Shock bullet would like a velocity between 1650-1850fps for quality expansion. I agree with Scott that I like the 2 Hole method, but I also like a bullet that will expand internally and do a lot of damage before coming out the other side (Lung Shot when availabe). These super mags that a lot of us are using to-day will sail right through at 100 yrds. They need distance to SLOW DOWN and do their work. All Bullets will penetrate, but they will only expand at a given velocity or in a hard shoulder shot at any range. Should we all be using our slower calibers (2600fps) to get proper expansion at 100 and 200yrds and for that matter out to 300yrds.? | |
Jerry | |
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| wolfdog, My take on it is, the more energy that the bullet produces, the more energy will be transmitted to the target, pass through or not. More energy will, more than likely, cause a pass through on most animals, but that has a lot to do with bullet construction. Frangible rounds like the Vmax, or Nosler BT's, usually disintegrate within the animal, which is why I use them on fox, coyote & chucks. The path that the bullet takes through the animal also determines the amount of energy the bullet imparts, such as bones being hit, time in target, etc. Shot placement, or where the energy is focused, is a "no brainer", but all else being equal, there is a "happy medium", or middle ground, when it comes to caliber choice, but the choice is quite wide. I've seen where hardball, or solids have been pushed to their limits, and although they didn't expand much, if at all, their effect on tissue was devastatingly obvious, just based on velocity alone. Based on bullet construction between the two, the mechanics would apply to both rifles and handguns. Over the years, I've seen more evidence to support your observations with with lighter more frangible bullets as far as quick kills. The point that you neck shoot, would make them a benefit as far as using them in that situation. But, shooting deer in the chest or shoulder might result in more meat loss. I use a 120 gr. Vmax bullet in my 7mm-08 Striker at 2650fps. Yes, I know that it's pretty much a varmint bullet, but at the velocity that it's travelling, it doesn't give the explosive effect that most would think. It acts more like a regular 140 or 150gr. bullet would in a rifle. I tested it against rifles in various loadings and my results panned out in the field. It's all a trade off, and the variables, both with the loadings and it's field use and conditions, can be vast. Good shooting Bob Edited on 12/15/2003 6:27:00 AM. | |
Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup? | |
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Quote Interesting. From what I have experienced in my lifetime, the moderate speed bullets seem to have a greater effect then the whizz bangs, at least at closer ranges <250. I have watched bears take on a couple of shots with 300 Ultra Mag with God knows how much energy and velocity. I have also seen them folded up quite neatly with a 35 Whelen or 30/06 shuffling along from 2500-2700 fps. | |
Scott | |
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| This is a question that I've been asking myself the last 2 weeks or so. I have been hunting deer with a handgun only for the last couple of years. This year with a Raging Bull .454. I had worked up a load consisting of a 300gr RNFP bullet cast from 50% linotype and 50% pure lead. Powered by 29.5 grains of H110. Two weeks ago I shot a respectable size buck at 80yards, nailed him broadside in the lungs. He went down for a few minutes, then got up again and I ended up tracking him 200 yards into the woods. There was absolutely NO blood trail at all. Luckily, it had rained the night before and so I was able to follow his tracks. The bullet went clear through without any apparent expansion. It broke a rib on the way out, but did not create enough of a wound channel to allow external bleeding. This has caused me to rethink my choice of hunting loads. I chose the lead bullet so as to do a minimum amount of damage to the meat (my primary reason for hunting) and for good penetration in case of a bone hit. I've also loaded the XTP HP bullet with 30grs of H110. Expansion should be good and I will use these as I continue to hunt. They aren't however, as accurate as the lead bullets, and I'll need to shorten my comfort range accordingly...the lead bullets consistently hold 3" groups at 100yards. The XTP spread out to 4 or 4-1/2". | |
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| Hey Flint, I take it you got the ole' boy, right? Anyhoo, my experience with the cast bullet hunting game has been relatively sucessful to this point. It's an ongoing experiment, but I love soap opera's. Maybe I misread it, but are the bullets you're using a round nosed flat point ? What I've had the best luck with in hunting whitetails is a round with a large flat, or meplat. A "Keith" style is what I now use, but it is a gascheck hollowpoint design. I get beautiful penetration, as well as dramatically quick deaths. Usually, any deer I shot with them drops on the spot, or goes only a couple steps at the most. The most notable result when the deer is shot with them, is the resounding "thump" that returns. It almost sounds like someone smacking an old bag of feed with a baseball bat. I know that as far as initial impact is concerned, the meplat is playing a big role, and that the hollowpoint definitely helps. I think we guessed before that your bhn was approx. 15.5, which is suitable for good handgun performance with a cast round. I use WW lead which is water quenched, resulting in a 13-14 bhn. My guess is, by adding a flat nosed bullet, if one is offered, you'd get that initial shock needed to plant him. A hollowpoint might be a good addition. It won't expand like a jacketed bullet, but will give you a "middle ground" between the two. Hope this helps...... Take care bud. Bob | |
Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup? | |
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| Hey Bob, Yeah, I got him...finished cutting him up yesterday and he's beginning his new "life" as grill fodder. That 300gr I cast is a round nose flat point from a Lee mold. It has a very flat profile, and I really thought it would have the punch to drop the deer in his tracks, and it certainly got his attention as he layed down for awhile before getting up and trotting off, but it just didn't hit enough vitals to stone-cold drop him. I think I asked you this before, but where did you get the mold you are casting the HP Keith bullet from? I've also toyed with the idea of casting that same bullet softer and relying on the gascheck to keep it from leading the bore...but I think staying with my present alloy and going to a hollowpoint configuration would be the way to go. I just know that this Taurus would rather be fed lead than copper!! Thanks, Flint | |
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| Hm, I am afraid I will have to dissagree on the penetration issue. I think those cast bullets kill differently than hollowpoints. If u shoot an elk with a cast load in .45lc, and get comlete penetration, I think u get an energy dump, but not enough to catastophicaly shock the system. I think u are correct, the animal dies of blood loss, O2 loss, and the wound chanel. I think large meplate bullets work better than pointed or round nose, because they are less arodynamic and drop energy faster and spend slightly more time in the animal. But I do not think that hollow points or ballistic tips kill the same way as a cast or fmj bullet. I think that bullets are generaly one of three types, lets call them energy dump, penetrating, and standard(cause I don't know what to call the third group) Now true energy dump bullets have no place in the hunting of large game. They are varmint bullets ment to fragment on impact, or frangeables. They kill by dumping way more energy than the animal can handle into it's vitals, be it a .17 on a gopher, or fox, or a .222 on chucks, energy dump, hydrostatic shock, chuck chunks. Then we have penetrating bullets, fmj, cast etc. I think these bullets perform best on large animals where they have time to destroy tissue, ie create a wound chanel. Ie, shoot a deer in the shoulder with a .44 mag kieth bullet, complete penetration, holes in lungs, etc deer dies of blood/O2 loss. However I think these bullets too have their limits. Hit a dear in the neck, and miss the spine and major blood vessles, deer (may) escape. Hit the body, and puncture one lung, or by sheer bad luck, miss major organs, deer again (may) escape. Not a fault in bullet design, but the cast bullet crowd deffinitaly require a larger degree of skill, u must punch your hole very carefully. The third kind of bullet is what most people use I think, the "standard" bullets. These bullets do both, penetrate, and dump energy, the problem, they don't do them equaly well, and alot of time people don't see this. My 139 grn sst leans tward the frangable/energy dump side. I don't care about an exit wound on deer, it is possable with a perfect shot, or a neck shot like this year, but not (my) major concern. This bullet hits, expands imediatly, and dumps huge amounts of energy all at once, and that is the key I think for the standard bullets, how fast they dump energy. In a deer, my sst will dump all it's energy into the heart and lungs, from my .280, this is more than enough to dramaticaly shock the system, end result, the deer has jello for internals in milliseconds, so a quick kill. If I try the same bullet on elk, even from a faster rifle, the rusults may be dissapointing. Shoulder blowup, internal direction change, bad. To solve this, use a bullet that leans more tward the penetrating side on elk, i.e. 165 grn interloc. The bullet now penetrates to vitals more reliably, and expands slower, so it delivers the energy in the elk where I want it. Bullet placement is the key that is a given. And to be honest, no way is better than another, match the bullet to the velocity and the game, and u are going to be ok. Faster is better, to a point, blowing up bullets on the serface of an animal will jelly leg muscles, not imediatly fatal. But, this is just a friendly discussion, I shoot cast and jacketed, depending on use and would never rank cast bullets as secondary. But lets face it, we all have our preferences to bullets for guns, and our reasons why. So hopefully we can disscuss them some more, then we can have more favorite bullets, more is always good! Well, this is way to long, I hope u all forgive me for it, I am just going to list some of my favorite bullets, and the game I would hunt with them, Some may do the same, some may give input on them but it seems like a good discussion. 139grn hdy sst 7mm, deer 139grn hdy interloc, deer/(maybe)elk/bear 158 grn cast midkansas rnfp .357 deer/antigoat 110 grn speer hp .357 gopher/badger/target 158 grn hdy hp/xtp deer/antigoat well those are my faves, yours? Can't wait to try the 139 interbond, bal. tip, bonded core, hmm...interesting. | |
Somebody once asked a centipede, "Mr. centipede, how do u walk with all those legs"? When the centipede stoped and thought about it, he tripped and fell. | |
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| Now I´m loose again: WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY by M.L. Fackler, M.D. Letterman Army Institute of Research Division of Military Trauma Research Presidio of San Francisco, California 94219 Institute Report No. 239 July 1987 Quote The link below -with all the links ,including what I quoted above- has ridiculous amounts of information,take your time. Terminal Ballistics EDIT: Another quote from those pages: Quote Edited on 12/15/2003 9:52:08 AM. | |
"Wild Horses" @ The Rolling Stones | |
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| I'm beginning to enjoy this THREAD. Let's keep it GOING I think bullet manufacturers are continually looking to keep us hunters happy. | |
Jerry | |
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| It has been my experience that a bullet that goes into the vitals and out far enough on the far side to create a large lump in the hide is preferable to one that blasts all the way thru. Handgun bullets , need to be thought of more in a bowhunters mindset. The swc designs have the flat meplat that opens the wound, and the cutting edge of the driving band creating a second shockwave. Again in my experience the hp designs of handgun bullets usually fail to expand due to the low velocity at impact, becoming more of a smooth missle like a field point arrow, penetrate yes, large wound channel no. | |
The most expensive bullet there is ain’t worth a plug nickel if it don’t go where its supposed to. | |
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| I read most of the article, and though very well presented, I am not wholey convinced. First off, he starts with the presumption that hydrostatic shock/knockdown does not exist, which I think is a mistake. However, he does refer to a shockwave. I think that the term hydrostatic refers to waters inability to compress under preasure. I agree, soft spongey material is the best shock obsorber. rubber ball egg, ok, got it. But the body is full of nervs, small blood vessels, thin tissue, and water. I think that this shock or preasure wave caused by rapidly expanding bullets produce many fractures in the tissue, destroying cell membrains, blood vessels, never function, heart rythm, it's what turns the internals to mush. bloodshot meat is an example of this. The shockwave has blown appart muscle and blood vessles leaving burger. I still maintain that arrows cast bullets and hollowpoints all kill differently, like a rapier and a hammer. Arrows cut, they destroy blood vessles, arteries, organs, and let in air by their cut alone, no energy imparted of segnificance, it's all focused onto the edge of the blades, to cut. Cast bullets(excluding hp's) create a crush wound, the shock produced by these bullets is not as segnificant as that of an hp, and produces little effect on game, just not enough rapidly released. So they poke holes, damage major organs release blood and oxogen into the system, and outside of the animal, if a major organ is hit, animal drops now, if not, it bleads out and suphocates. Hollow points go in cause shockwave, and hemorage surounding tissue. If the bullet stays together, expands around the area of the vitals fast enough, and bears enough weight and momentum to transfer the animal dies of energy dump, if not, it still does produce a crush wound after expanding. Large rifles with solids used on dangerous game have usualy large cals. I thing this may be because on huge game animals and dangerous ones, the bullet goes through a rather large amount of meat, and a .243 is probably not going to drop energy enough to stop a 1500lbs animal after travling though 18" of bone hide and muscle. I wonder, if u laced ballistic gelitin with lines of red dye pencil thin, and shot it with one of these energy dumping rounds what would happen, I thing it would blow it out and all over the gellitin. I also wonder what would happen if u shot a cape buff with a tough high cal hp bullet? And if u could put a bullet proof vest on a deer, and shoot him with a 45/70 govt, would the imparted energy be enough to kill it? I have seen gophers hit with .22 rn bullets that didn't react, and a few poor hollowpoints, and some hit with hp's that worked react completely differently. I think it's the energy dump that matters, and how fast, both exited, but there is a difference this is over hundreds of ground hogs. Isn't that the goal of a good hp bullet, to dump energy more quickly, and create a larger wound chanel? It does seem like I am the only energy fan here....I wonder if I can do some experaments with my pellet gun.... on chucks. I just don't know if it has enough energy to actualy cause shock...mabye more playing with the .22 lr this spring. Yeah, that's it, a duel, lol, u can all bring ur solids, I'll bring my hps, any guns, and when we run out of bullets, we'll ask the gophers. Just a ? to the solids fans for personal defence solids or hp and why? Is it the increased wound chanel? I wonder if perhaps the hp also hurts more? I still think that there is knock down power and that it has to do with a bullet sudenly loosing speed inside a victim instead of just going through, I just don't think very many pistols have that kind of power though hp's allow it to dump enough energy for hydrostatic shock. Again, none of this is certain, I don't think anyone knows for sure, but it's fun to speculate. | |
Somebody once asked a centipede, "Mr. centipede, how do u walk with all those legs"? When the centipede stoped and thought about it, he tripped and fell. | |
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| One thing that charts and study on scientific media can't duplicate is the adrenalin flow in an animal. I've seen large bull elk drop to the ground from 1 bullet from a 243,while just mossying along. I've also watched a running cow elk take 6 rnds from a 300 wby. And all sorts of wild things inbetween the 2 extremes just mentioned. | |
The most expensive bullet there is ain’t worth a plug nickel if it don’t go where its supposed to. | |
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This is always fun, to speculate stuff like bullets. I use all kind of bullets. Just different bullets for different jobs. Now, back to the topic:Quote Oh no,kinetic energy is important. So is momentum. A bullet of a given construction and impact velocity will create a cavity of predictable dimensions over its path, whether it stops or penetrates completely. Therefore, if the hole created can penetrate all the way through, it causes more damage than if it stops at some point. The critical issue here is what sort of hole are we making, not whether it goes all the way through. An example that I like: Quote One note about bloodshot meat: our moose that drop fast have no bloodshot meat. The ones who run far always have some, no matter what bullet or caliber used. I took a big calf moose with 338 Lapua this season and I used a 250 grain HP Scenar, probably the cleanest wound of them all this season.The moose Walked 30 yards and died. Lung inside and an egg size exit in the shoulder,very very clean meat. If that bullet doesn´t make the "shock" -and ruin meat,what does lol? Just sharing questions,experience and theories here,please don´t get too serious or insulted,anyone. This will never end which is a good thing. | |
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