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Handloads.Com Forum Huntingpenetration vs energy | |
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| Handgunr; I tend to agree with you, you have to have a degree of both. I was kind a overreacting to the "superficial Hydrostatic shock" issue. But the fact still remains you must penetrate to the vitals. No amount of energy is going to give you a clean kill without that penetration. Look at it this way, Energy is nothing more than the capacity to do work. Kenetic energy is merely doing that work with energy derived from a moving body. If all your capacity to do work is spent outside the vitals, you must transfer that capacity to the vitals in some way. That where the Hydrostatic shock folks come in. Trouble is, your not gonna cleanly kill the deer with that hydrostatic shock on the body cavity. Something has to penetrate to sever a lung, artery other other major organ if you expect to harvest that animal. Hydrostatic shock does not kill on neck shots either. Breaking the vertebrae and severing the spinal column does that by stoping the organs from functioning. | |
Is it deer season yet? | |
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| Yes, I agree, superficial shock is useless, unless it dramaticaly overpowers the target, like a 7mm mag on a squirl in bulletproof armor. Bones, muscle, they obsorb shock pretty well, and even if we cause huge damage, it's not going to be imediatly fatal. The hydrostatic shock/shockwave/preasure wave or whatever must be delivered to the vitals to be effective. The article mentioned defines hydrostatic shock as a misnomer, shock can't be static, etc...but I thought hydro was water, and static refered to waters inability to compress, meaning it must be displaced creating sharp preasure spike. For proof of this waves existance at least, shoot a small animal with a round that dumps energy quickly, and check the exit wound. I have hit gophers with .22lr rounds that had four and five inch holes on exit. I think this is caused by the preasure wave in front of the bullet causeing the wound cavity to expand beyond the bodies tollerances and tearing creating a "venting" area. Look at fist size exit holes in deer....maybe there is a preasure wave just ahead of the bullet, not sure, other opinions on this concept please? | |
Somebody once asked a centipede, "Mr. centipede, how do u walk with all those legs"? When the centipede stoped and thought about it, he tripped and fell. | |
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| Wolfdog, The idea of superficial shock, I think is limited to damaged meat, the only shock waves that count are in vitals. The gophers hit with .22LR and displaying five inch exit wounds, may be the result of tissues explosive reaction to the hydrostatic shock and venting it as you say. Don | |
Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Fit | |
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| I agree with the damaged meat thing, I was just wondering how big a gun would have to be to kill purely with energy? Like if a person wore a bullet proof vest, and u shot him with a high powered hunting rifle, and the bullet did not penetrate, what would it take for that to be imediatly fatal? Just morbid curiosity. Probably one of the big african game rifles, or bigger. not a practical concept, just a thought. | |
Somebody once asked a centipede, "Mr. centipede, how do u walk with all those legs"? When the centipede stoped and thought about it, he tripped and fell. | |
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| wolfdog that's an interesting question and one that could cause a lot more confusion. I do know that it is quite possible to "bark" a squirrel with a 54 flintlock 110 grs. 2f and a 535 rnd ball. | |
The most expensive bullet there is ain’t worth a plug nickel if it don’t go where its supposed to. | |
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| wolfdog, I had to wear a vest for many years, and I'll tell you this, a .44mag will "depress" the vest 6". That means, when you get hit in the sternum with a round from one, it's gonna fracture. Or at least break some bone that's directly under it. I got the video from "Second Chance", that I used to show in classes. The one where the guy stuffs a telephone book under the vest before he shoots himself (inverting the gun) with a 7 1/2" .44mag. The round still hurts him, and puffs the vest & phonebook up, but he walks away with nothing broken. Like I said, I show this to classes, but also tell them that they don't have the luxury of the telephone book. What I think would definitely kill someone, even though they are wearing a vest, would be a 12ga. slug. Penetrate the vest, no, but tramatic shock to the chest would be devastating, and more than likely would blow them off their feet. I know you mentioned "morbid", but on a few 12ga. suicide investigations that I was assigned to, the victim had shot himself low on the abdomen with a 12ga. slug. It never exited and came to rest up near the spine and the shoulder blades. This has happened more than once. I never believed that a 12ga. slug could be stopped by so little, but it happened. It also threw the body several feet. A .22 or .38 shot into someone with a vest on, will leave a good 6" circle shaped bruise that's nasty. I got a buddy who works in Rochester, N.Y., and he's been shot with a .38, with his vest on. Although he was pumped up on adrenaline, he's said that it felt like someone hit him with a ballpein hammer. He said that it was a sharp pain, but nothing that kept him from popping the other guy. Oh well.......... I never want to find out.... Take care, Bob Edited on 12/17/2003 5:18:17 AM. | |
Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup? | |
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Quote Handgunr - That's open to debate - Well, ok it's not. The more velocity a bullet has, the less penetration will be achieved. The bullet will tend to disintegrate upon impact as velocities are increased. I believe that's the whole theory behind varmit bullet designs. Give your favorite bullet manufacturer a call and see if they dissagree. With that being said, we may need to take another look at the deer you are shooting. You will most definately have different wound ballistics at ranges from 50 to over 200 yards (especially with the loss in velocity you will have at the 272 yard mark with a start at 1995 fps). You mention the entrance wound at 100 yards - what about the 50 yard wound? I would expect to see an equal or slightly larger entrance wound with possibly no exit. Don't get bullet ballistics and wound ballistics mixed up. They are two entirely different courses of study. Physics aren't a debate, even though I spend so much time trying to prove them wrong.  | |
I don’t have obsessions - I like to think of it as being highly focused. | |
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Quote I think a shot to the unprotected cranium would be more definate. Quote Yet a 12ga. slug will only drop a 150 lb. whitetail at 2 feet - hmmmmmmm. | |
I don’t have obsessions - I like to think of it as being highly focused. | |
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Zigs, Quote Your statement has more to do with bullet design, than what I said. What I was getting at was, for instance, if you chose a solid, and shot it at various velocities, the faster you pushed it, the more damage would be imparted to the animal. Take the 50BMG hardball into consideration. Expansion, if at all, plays very little part on the damage it causes to a live target, considering such. The only way to honestly test velocity as a damaging factor itself, is to use a non-expanding bullet. I've done it. Also, using the same round, more velocity will cause deeper penetration, it has to, if expansion is not a factor. Using expanding rounds such as the Vmax, or Nosler BT's, no, you won't get the same results due to different bullet design. Faster you push them, the quicker they disintegrate, with less penetration. But, that's what they're designed to do. There's a middle ground regarding standard softpoints as well, depending on your intended target. Pushed too slow, they don't expand properly, and penetration might occur, but would be questionable. More than likely a clean hole through. Pushed too fast and they likely would blow up, or disintegrate superficially, causing wounds, and penetration would again, be questionable. That's why most bullet manufacturers provide velocity ranges with their rounds. As far as my experiences shooting deer with the .357 maximum, yes, I initially stated that the ranges the deer were shot at, showed dramatic differences in both entrance holes, and exit or no exits. If you re-read my post I stated Quote I also realize that the study of "ballistics" (both internal & external), and "wound ballistics" are seperate areas of study.........but you really can't have one without the other, right? I "hopefully" never got the two mixed up....I had to teach most of this stuff. Even though at times, in a more rudementary form. Take care, Bob | |
Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup? | |
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| Handgur, Interesting that you brought up Second Chance. They were on the local news tonight, under fire from the PA. State Police for selling them faulty vests. They were saying they could be fined up to $10,000.00 for each faulty vest they sold the state. Don | |
Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Fit | |
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| BigBlue, No sh*t.........ouch, that could be expensive to say the least. We tested their vests years ago, and they stood up pretty well. They sent us sample panels and we shot the hell out of them. We also bought one from our supplier, to compare the two as well. "Level 3's" will stop everything but a centerfire rifle round. We shot them draped over 50lb. blocks of modeling clay we obtained from the local college. We measured the imprints the rounds would leave in the clay. even though they didn't penetrate. It was very sobering! The armored plates that go in them, most think, are there to stop rifle rounds. They didn't. They're basically a "shock plate" positioned right over the heart, more so for trauma prevention. I have to admit, I didn't use them, and neither did any of the other officers. We carried them with us, and during the bad calls, we'd throw them in prior to getting there. But they were tough to move in. Everyone used to bitch about wearing the vest saying it was too hot, but I coined an old phrase...."The vest may be hot, but a bullet passing through your chest is a lot hotter". Kind of sobering as well. Take care, Bob PS-It just hit me.....I wondered how the PA State boys found out that the vests were faulty ???????? | |
Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup? | |
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| Boomer and wolfdog, Just a thought that surfaced remembering an old hunting episode. I had shot a buck back around 1991 or 92, and to make a long story short, he trotted across in front of me at 40 to 50 yds, following a doe. I was freezing to put it lightly, and even though I tried to lead him only a couple inches by putting the crosshairs on his shoulder (hoping for the optimum area), I ended up smacking him in the neck. Don't ask.... I was 20ft. up a tree, in 10 degree weather, for three hours, and a wind to boot. Needless to say, I usually don't take running shots unless I'm realitively certain of success, and I thought so on this one, but even though I scewed up, this guy hangs on my wall. If it wasn't for his "rocking horse" motion while running, I'd have missed him across the front. In this instance, the venison gods smiled on me....... Anyway, the bullet, upon examination, struck him in the muscle layer directly in front of the windpipe & main arteries, hitting nothing "but" muscle. A postmortem, while caping him at my taxidermist's (whom I was hunting with at the time) indicated that nothing vital was really hit. The exit hole was between a quarter and half dollar in size. The only thing that could have killed the ole' boy was shock from impact. Now I'm not a big proponent of hydrostatic shock as a killer, like a lot of others, I rely on penetration as a more secure route to success. But, in this particular incident, hydrosatitic, or impact shock, definitely took him down. It made me believe that when no vitals are hit, but a bullet strikes near a main neurological location, such as the brain, spine, or both (neck), the trauma from the shockwave alone, has enough energy to kill an animal instantaneously. Here's my take on it; Hydrostatic, or impact shock, is a "by product", or component of bullet flight and the impact thereof. It will always be there in a greater, or lesser degree. Without penetration to the vital organs, success based on such shock alone, can't be relied upon with any amount of certainty. Penetration can be more relied upon for death, as a factor, but, hydrostatic shock, as a by product, accompanies penetration, and, that while the bullet penetrates, hydrostatic shock destroys, or ruptures flesh and blood vessels in the surrounding tissue. Without enough speed, you get minimal, or little penetration, and proportionately diminished hydrostatic shock. By pushing the bullet faster, you'll increase penetration, and shock as well, until you reach the desired effect, or the limit of the bullets mechanical abilities. After that point, pushed past it's design limitations, the bullet fails to perform. The area of optimum bullet performance isn't always what's most strived for. It's usually accuracy that we try to develop our loads around. I'm guilty here.......... There's a lot of demands on a bullet and it's design. Some are better than others, as we all well know. I've found that sometimes the most accurate load, isn't the best performing on target. Bullet construction, and it's intended purpose, in my opinion, dictates most of the parameters. A good balance of all things considered is what I work towards now. Just my tilt on it all. In this case.....my dollar fifty's worth.... Take care, Bob Edited on 12/18/2003 9:50:22 AM. | |
Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup? | |
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| Wolfdog, I have been wanting to give some of those HDY Interbonds out myself seems like if it works as planned we will still get devastating impacts w/ good weight retention. I primarily Shoot the 139-150 grn. Bal. Tip bullets through my 7mm Rem. Mag. and it will knock the daylights out of them. The longest blood trail I have been on w/ the Bal. Tips has been 20-25 yards. Those bullets will realy put some energy in the animal. Nosler has some Internally Bonded bullets out as well. They might be a good prospect. You cant hardly beat the trajectory and speed of these Balistic tipped bullets. They could really make some money if they would make the partions in a Bal. Tip Boat tail design. That would give the "Penetration hunters" alittle better trajectory and down range energy. Good Luck To all! rws | |
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| Handgunr: While I will allow there is some shock imparted to the animal when hit by the bullet, I don't beleive that it is enough to be lethal. Like you I've seen animals shot in the neck and go down "right now". I beleive this is because of energy transfer, but only because there is enough imparted to break the neck via whiplash and or a drect hit on a vertebrae. Same theory as severe wiplash in a car accident. On the other had, I've seen animals take hits on the rear hip. In one case, with a 308 Nosler balistic tip out of a 30-06, the hit caused a shallow splash wound on the hip, about 8 inches around. That 150 grain BT out of a 30-06 spent all of its energy on that deer. The deer ran off, was hit by a car and drug 30 feet, got up and ran into a woodlot. We finally got it with a killing shot about 3 hours later. That deer took the full "hydrostatic shock" of the '06 hit within inches of it's spine and did not even slow down. If it would have died from it, it would have been days latter. That is why I will always insist a bullet has to penetrate. rws: You can't have a bullet that blows up, to whatever degree, and stays together too. Cake anyone? | |
Is it deer season yet? | |
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Quote I am laughing my you know what off. I don't even know how to reply to his post. Thanks for the laugh. | |
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