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Handloads.Com Forum General DiscussionCase life? | |
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| Here's my situation: I had to remove 22 cases out of 50 tonight due to case separation. These are .41 magnum cases (Project 41) on their 5th. reload. I have my die adjusted so I only reform the first .66" of the case. I was hoping to keep the cases as tight as possible to my chamber. It turns out that right where the die stops is where the cases have a ring around them. I've never encountered this with a bottleneck case before. The problem was brought to my attention at the range Saturday on my last set of rounds with 210 grn. Hornady's and 22.7 grns. H110. The first round rocketed at 1865 fps, which was over the max I was expecting to see. So, I checked the case as it came out of the barrel; no sticking, nothing abnormal with the primer or rim, then I saw the ring around the shell. It looked as if I had taken a pipe cutter the whole way around the rim, just not the whole way through. Well, being the curious soul that I am, I chambered the next round and squeezed the trigger. 1857 fps, and the same ring around the case only not as pronounced. Then I knocked over the first case, which promptly split in two pieces when it met the concrete floor. WOW! Case thickness at the point where the ring was is all but non-existent, and a perfectly clean break. The remaining three rounds were not fired. Now, I have two questions: 1) Is 5 reloadings an acceptable life span for straight wall cases? and, 2) Are my cases being destroyed because my dies are set wrong? (It appears the metal is being worked in the area where the ring is showing up). One adder: Ambient temps were in the mid-80's and barrel temp was 83.5 to 85 degrees when this all went down. | |
I don’t have obsessions - I like to think of it as being highly focused. | |
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| I have several batches of .41 mag brass (100ea.) On the card I keep with each batch I record how many times each is loaded. I am at 9 and 10 loading with no problems. Some with 17.5grs 2400 and a 210gr XTP, and some with mid range Unique and 2400 loads. I full length resize each time. Since the case is thicker at the base than at the point you are resizing you might be work hardening the brass where the die stops. Making it brittle. This is just my guess. Steve. | |
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| Yeah, I don't know. As I'm sitting here jumping back and forth between forums, I think what I'm going to do is reset my sizing die to full length resize when I start with the Unique ramp. I feel like I'm constantly back pedalling with the load development for this gun. I'm not sure if I'm trying to employ my bottleneck procedures with this straight wall caliper or what. I just know this caliper has educated me in more ways than one. Which I guess is good.......frustrating, but good. | |
I don’t have obsessions - I like to think of it as being highly focused. | |
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| Zigs if I remember correctly project 41 is with a contender? If so you maybe getting a headspace problem. By not fullength sizing you could be causing the cases to headspace on the shoulder left where you stop sizing instead of the rim. | |
The most expensive bullet there is ain’t worth a plug nickel if it don’t go where its supposed to. | |
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| That sounds right. Doesn't the Contender keep the case out of the barrel just a bit on the extractor? Then when you close the action it would force the case against the "neck" you created with partial sizing. Ranch 13 wins a gold star!!! I get a blue star for the work hardening idea!! Darn we are GOOD. | |
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| well actually I can't take full credit for that,cuz many years ago Bob Milek wrote and article about the same thing for Shooting times. But it does make sense if you stop and think a minute. I've got 45 colt and 44 mag and special cases over 30 yrs old and still going,but all have been fired mostly in revolvers where the rim is the only thing keeping it from sliding through the cylinder. | |
The most expensive bullet there is ain’t worth a plug nickel if it don’t go where its supposed to. | |
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| Headspace - the most misunderstood term in the reloading neighborhood. Here's my take on it: You have a portion of a case called the "head" located above the rim (and belt on some cases) below the shoulder. Now, you have a "space" between this "head" and your given chamber. This space is usually tracked by head expansion of a given case, measured in .0001". If the above is true, you can't "headspace" off a rim. The rim has nothing to do with the head or the space between the head and the chamber. Right?? Sorry, that's a peeve of mine when I hear people talk about headspacing off a rim, or better yet the shoulder. That being said, yes I think I have a headspace problem. Excessive headspace where I'm sizing (setting back) the case. Yes, I know that's what is causing the failures. My question is/was are my die settings shortening my case life. Let me back up to when I first came on board; I was just starting Project 41, and had zero experience with straight wall calibers. Maybe I need to restate my question: Must you full length resize straight wall cases to extend case life? We all know brass flows from a point of high pressure to low pressure. I can slow this flow down in a bottleneck case that has been fireformed in a given chamber by neck sizing only - leave that case dimension alone. Does a straight wall case have the same brass flow properties as a shouldered case? I know crimping will lead to split cases, apparently, partial resizing has the same effect only farther down the case. | |
I don’t have obsessions - I like to think of it as being highly focused. | |
| Author | This thread is locked. |
| I can only compare the partial sizing to my .303 British. I neck size most of the time with it. When I get cracks, they are on the neck close to the shoulder. Right where the sizing die stops. I would vote to full length resize for longer case life on a straight wall case. On some rifles, you get the best accuracy when the bullet just touches the lands. Can this be done on a Contender barrel? | |
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| All depends on the barrel. My 30 Herrett, 357 Herrett, 7-30 Waters, and 7mmTCU barrels all like the bullet right off the lands. Project 41 and a previously owned 30-30 needed a jump to get to the lands. Why? Beats the heck out of me. This barrel has a preference for a col(aol) of 1.585" +/- .001". To put a Sierra 210 grain pill at the lands I'm at 1.612", so as it stands right now I'm .029" behind the lands (+/- .002"). I will post how case life stands with full length resizing. I'm going with another 50 cases, and use the remaining 28 cases as sighters and warm-up rounds. | |
I don’t have obsessions - I like to think of it as being highly focused. | |
| Author | This thread is locked. |
| Zigs to answer the straight wall question the case spaces on the rim so they should be full length resized to keep them from forming a shoulder to space on. straight wall cases get very then when you get past the web. Bottle necked cases have thicker brass at the shoulder that they space on stopping the brass flow at normal chamber pressures, and generally only need to be neck sized if the gun will chamber them that way , for maximum case life. | |
The most expensive bullet there is ain’t worth a plug nickel if it don’t go where its supposed to. | |
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| Great! Thanks for the info, but that leads me to another question. I had a large amount of spent gas residue on my cases when I first started. (This is when I was full length resizing)More than I believe to be normal - actually to the point of being on the inside lip of the rim. When I started partial sizing, this "blowback" disappeared. Is this residue normal operation for a straight wall caliber? I'm 99% positive I'll have it again when I start pushing the case back to original dimensions. Or, is this residue powder specific? | |
I don’t have obsessions - I like to think of it as being highly focused. | |
| Author | This thread is locked. |
| most likely you need a little more crimp when full length sizing. The powder risidue you find in the contender would be cylinder gap flash in a revolver. One thing you might experiment with on partial sizing is to anneal the case mouths down as far as you resize, or size further down the case and get the "shoulder" closer to the web. | |
The most expensive bullet there is ain’t worth a plug nickel if it don’t go where its supposed to. | |
| Author | This thread is locked. |
| Hey Zigs. I have a 1981 Shooting Times HANDGUNS magazine you might be interested in. Articles on the .41mag, .30 and .357 Herrett "Wildcats", single shot pistols. Anyway, some things have changed a lot, and some things never change. If you would like it sent to you drop me a line at stelan@ktvb.net If you enjoy it you could send me a buck or two for postage. I had fun with it. A blast from the past.(Thanks to E-Bay) Steve. | |
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| Zigs, I just lost a HUGE letter to you... intelligent questions (many), erudite "answers" (few), artful humour... a GREAT letter, Zigs... shit!... there ain't an un-smiley face that even comes close!!! I'm doing the same partial-sizing with my 45 Colt brass but I've got 1000 of them so it's going to take me awhile to hit firing #5. I can reload at the range without too much hassle so I may do that with one case to see what happens. Humour me, Zigs... I need input. 1. What brand sizing die? 2. Carbide or...? 3. Mostly top end-ish loads? 4. Any HOT? 5. Have you got chamber-cast numbers? 6. What's the other forum you are running this on (I want to see the responses)? 7. Can you measure the near-mouth diameter of your sizing die? 8. I've only got two straight wall pistol sizing dies... both 45 Colt. One is an RCBS standard and the other is a LEE carbide. I just looked at their mouths with a 10x loupe. The Lee has a cone that turns to the sizing diameter. The transition is a knife edge... NO radius... not even a "light line" (like on a dull knife edge). The RCBS has a cone, too, but the transition is a radius... VERY rounded. What does this area of your die look like? 9. Do you have any case diameter numbers (same case... unfired, fired, sized, loaded)? 10. What is the trimming history? 11. Have you pulled a bullet from any of "the three"? Did the front of the case come with it? I'm hoping this is a die or die-type thing... not a die-use thing. I've heard other people mention partial sizing of straight walled cartridges (rifle cartridges, too, for that matter) and haven't heard of any problems from doing this except Dave Scovill said a person would have to full length size sooner or later because the unsized part of the case (straight wall) would inevitably grow... no details anywhere... just mentions. Mike Krall PS... If anyone else can pass on info. of what their sizing die mouths look like, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you (cartridge, die brand, die type (carbide, standard, nitride, etc.) PPS... Quote I thought you said you were a curious soul? Edited on 7/31/2003 11:16:15 AM. | |
| Author | This thread is locked. |
| Mike - give me a day to get answers to all your questions. Some I can give you off the top of my head:1) RCBS 2)carbide 3) loads go from low end to high end (ramps of increasing powder loads) 4) The cases started seperating on a very hot load of 22.7 grns/H110 pushing the 210 grain Hornady to 1865 fps. 6)AR 10) trimming history is 5x. I'll run each shell through a trim step if it needs it or not. Most of the time I'm just squaring up the case mouth. Main trim for case length was done at the first handload w/virgin brass. 11)not yet, maybe Friday I'll get a chance to work with them again. I'd like to have a ramp of Unique ready for Saturday, don't know if this will happen or not. I said I was a curious soul, not crazy! | |
I don’t have obsessions - I like to think of it as being highly focused. | Handloads.Com ForumGeneral DiscussionCase life? |
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